Hold Time: Waste Time

Co-hosts Becca Rashid and Ian Bogost discover our relationship with time and the best way to reclaim it. Why is it so vital to be productive? Why can it really feel like there’s by no means sufficient time in a day? Why are so many people conditioned to imagine that being extra productive makes us higher folks?

The next transcript has been edited for readability:

Becca Rashid: So Ian, after I despatched you that voice be aware yesterday, I simply needed to allow you to in my head slightly bit.

Rashid: A small glimpse into how anxious I’m simply ready for something.

Ian Bogost: It was solely 4 minutes, Becca. It’s not very a lot time.

Rashid: It’s embarrassing, and I’m standing there, and whereas I’m ready I’m switching between two modes, of like, I must be profiting from this time. Let me learn that article my good friend despatched me. Or verify my emails.

Or, like: That is insane. It’s solely been 4 minutes. I must be a bit extra conscious. However I do know that I don’t need to be losing my time simply standing there.

Rashid: I’m Becca Rashid, producer of Hold Time, and I’m right here with my co-host, Ian Bogost.

Bogost: Hey, Becca.

Rashid: Hey, Ian. Numerous your writing and reporting right here at The Atlantic is about know-how and all of the methods it’s modified how we perceive ourselves and the folks round us.

However I additionally take into consideration how a lot tech has modified our relationship with time.

Bogost: Expertise tends to make issues quicker.

Trains and airplanes get you locations quicker; factories and machines construct issues quicker.

However communications applied sciences—like telephones and the web and such—permit us to ship and obtain data quicker. And much more incessantly, too.

Rashid: And all these emails and texts and posts and notifications give us extra stuff we are able to do. And it makes it simpler to do one thing on a regular basis, proper? That makes it more durable to tolerate losing time—simply doing nothing, or being alone along with your ideas.

Bogost: Oh gosh, it’s so true, Becca. You already know, your laptop computer, smartphone—all of these units make it simpler to get extra achieved. Work, socialize, or do banking, or sort of something in any respect.

So on one half, we’re extra environment friendly however proceed to really feel like there simply aren’t sufficient hours within the day. And you already know, Becca, in your final season, you talked in regards to the problem of constructing significant relationships. And when it comes all the way down to it, most individuals simply want extra time to do this sort of factor.

Rashid: However even after we do have sufficient time, we don’t know the best way to lean into the second the way in which we used to—we’re both anxiously planning for the following activity, or we’re being compulsively productive as a result of we’re type of nervous about free time on this new manner, after we’re simply kind alone with our ideas.

Like, why does it really feel like time is transferring too quick at sure factors and different days by no means? Or how can we reconcile regrets over shedding time or losing that that we do have?

Bogost: Yeah, I imply all this time stuff can really feel actually slippery —one second, you already know what you need to do and also you simply can’t discover time to do it.

However then the following second, you’re completely swimming in time that you just don’t know what to do with. So hopefully we are able to make sense of a few of these issues this season.

Rashid: That is Hold Time.

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Bogost: Becca, whenever you’re excited about losing time, what do you imply? Losing time in comparison with what? To do extra work? Or like, ready to get again to your desk to do extra work? As a way to, what … ship extra emails? Isn’t that only a waste of time, too?

Rashid: No, I do know. I do know. However I at all times have the thought at the back of my head that my time is proscribed. There’s truly one thing referred to as chronophobia.

Bogost: Chronophobia.

Rashid: The place some folks actually fear about that have of time passing. I can perceive that impulse to really feel like time is withering away in case you’re not doing one thing productive with it.

Bogost: Positive.

Rashid: I don’t know; it makes me marvel how we bought up to now of measuring our personal time and different folks’s time. How can we truly spend much less of our time measuring how a lot of it’s being wasted?

Bogost: When you consider it, it isn’t all of your time at all times being put to make use of. You’re there in your physique and your thoughts. You’re residing by means of your day and your life it doesn’t matter what you’re getting achieved. And your time is finite.

Your years on Earth are numbered. And, uh, you’re by no means going to have the ability to do every part. You need to do every part doable due to that. So possibly we, slightly than chasing it, want to determine the best way to be in time. Being in time slightly than chasing time.

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Rashid: So Ian, I talked to Oliver Burkeman—a journalist and an writer. He used to jot down a column for The Guardian the place he wrote so much about productiveness hacks and private improvement.

Rashid: And through our interview, he talked about what he referred to as a disillusionment with all of the self-help options.

Bogost: Yeah, yeah; I really feel that.

Rashid: However then in the future, after years of being within the weeds of way of life recommendation, he had a sort of epiphany on a park bench throughout a extremely demanding week when he realized that not one of the time-management hacks had been working.

Bogost: Becca, I imply I’ve undoubtedly spent years CHASING time myself and never figuring out precisely the best way to be in it, however possibly the trick is to simply settle for what Burkeman is saying … that it’s not possible.

Rashid: Burkeman wrote a e book in 2021 referred to as 4 Thousand Weeks: Time Administration for Mortals, the place he walks readers by means of his private journey with attempting to get on prime of all of it, on prime of time, and failing miserably.

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Burkeman: We’re always attempting to succeed in a sort of godlike place over our time.

Rashid: Okay; whenever you say “a godlike place,” I’m pondering, like, all forgiving, most merciful. However whenever you say “godlike place over time,” what do you imply by that?

Burkeman: I believe—and once more, to some extent this may occasionally simply be the hang-ups and screwups of me and another folks—however I believe that a whole lot of what we’re doing after we declare that we’re partaking in turning into extra productive, extra environment friendly, getting up to the mark, getting organized, is basically an try and sort of really feel limitless with respect to time, with respect to the duties, tasks, targets, ambitions we’d have for utilizing our time.

It’s a manner of type of not having to really feel what it actually feels prefer to be finite, to should make robust selections, to should acknowledge that there are at all times going to be extra issues that it will be significant to do with time than we’re ever going to have the chance to do.

Rashid: It’s fascinating; I went by means of this part, you already know, in my early 20s the place I noticed if I needed to be amazingly completed at something I might have needed to have began after I was three years outdated. You already know, whether or not that’s like gymnastics or ice skating or what have you ever; I used to be already a long time behind. It may be actually arduous to deal with the conclusion that that point is gone, and chances are you’ll not have ample time to get there sooner or later.

Burkeman: I believe clearly it’s doable, in a really type of down-to-earth manner, to make use of one’s time nicely for some future purpose, proper? However I believe that on a type of deeper degree, what a whole lot of us are doing after we’re attempting to make use of time nicely, in that sense—after we’re type of deeply dedicated, as American tradition is particularly deeply dedicated, you already know, to the concept each second have to be used maximally nicely—it’s not solely that that turns into a really type of capitalistic thought the place the one actual profit is is the revenue motive.

It’s additionally simply the truth that it’s centered on the longer term, proper? It’s all-defining: Every little thing about now when it comes to some extra vital second coming later, when it’s going to really have its worth. It’s going to money out, you already know; it’s going to have been value doing.

And so as a result of what occurs whenever you do that is that you find yourself, like, lacking your life. You find yourself lacking the current. Or to talk to what you had been saying, you already know, centered on remorse that you just didn’t begin utilizing your time on this rigorously instrumental manner earlier prior to now, you get to this very unusual conclusion.

The one possible way to make use of time very well—to really discover which means within the current—is by some definition of the time period to waste it.

I believe that in some ways, due to the world by which we dwell, that’s so fully dedicated to the concept time have to be used for future advantages, every part we consider as “losing time,” as pure idleness, is basically outlined as that as a result of it doesn’t result in one thing sooner or later.

Rashid: Proper, and I’m even referencing my childhood as wasted time, after I ought to have been coaching to be a gymnast, as an alternative of simply, like, a childhood. However in maturity it’s more durable to see it that manner, as a result of effectivity, time administration, and productiveness are all important parts in how we make a residing.

So, how can we method this concept of losing time and the way we’re conditioned to consider it—not as one thing pulling us away from productiveness, however simply as part of life?

Burkeman: It’s one thing that takes a constructive effort. It feels such as you shouldn’t simply be utilizing your leisure time to go on a run. It’s important to be coaching for a 10K or one thing.

Rashid: Yeah, proper.

Burkeman: It’s important to have health targets. It’s sort of a bit embarrassing, in a roundabout way, possibly, to have a passion as of late, however it’s actually not embarrassing to have a aspect hustle. And the one actual distinction is that a type of is one thing you’re attempting to show right into a enterprise.

Whereas, you already know, if what you want doing is amassing stamps from world wide, proper? That doesn’t actually work anymore. I’m undecided what occurred to stamp amassing as of late, however you already know.

Rashid: Like, a nonproductive passion for sheer enjoyment, however there’s nothing materially beneficial about that. Possibly, with the stamps.

Burkeman: Proper. Yeah, the thinker Kieran Setiya, he makes use of the phrase “atelic actions.” So, actions that aren’t given their which means by their telos or the place they’re headed.

Burkeman: And that’s completely true in sort of listening, actually listening, to different folks. Extremely arduous. It’s actually arduous to not simply spend a dialog excited about what you intend to say subsequent when the noise coming from the opposite particular person ceases for a bit, which is in fact not likely listening. And so for me, an enormous a part of that is simply understanding that this doesn’t really feel second nature to too many people.

Rashid: I hear you. I imply, even on this second I discover myself excited about what you’re saying and likewise forward to all of the questions that I’ve left to get by means of. It’s type of like when somebody asks me what my title is, after which I inform them, they usually inform me theirs—however all I can bear in mind is my title that I mentioned out loud.

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Bogost: So, Becca, possibly it’s an issue in our tradition, slightly than in us. We’re simply all, like, so wound up over profiting from each second. A lot that we don’t even actually know anymore what “profiting from a second” would even imply.

Rashid: And you already know, Ian, I’ve even had mates inform me they’re on courting apps virtually as a option to productively use their time. As an alternative of scrolling on Instagram, no less than they’re, you already know, constructing towards a relationship.

Bogost: Okay, it’s been a very long time since I’ve dated, and I by no means use courting apps. Are you saying your folks are like, “Effectively, bought some downtime; I higher get my courting in”?

Rashid: Sure, undoubtedly. Courting is its personal model of a productive passion, in my view.

Bogost: I suppose it is smart in a sure manner, like courting as productiveness or as an funding in your future partnership, or no matter it’s that you just’re after. Like, possibly that’s the place that concept comes from. You already know, “I don’t need to waste my time if this isn’t going anyplace,”—that type of sentiment is about progress. Like, {that a} relationship is about transferring ahead and constructing into no matter comes subsequent. God forbid your relationship isn’t going anyplace, proper?

Rashid: Proper.

Bogost: However, like, the place is “anyplace,” anyway?

Rashid: I don’t know. I really feel like I’m happiest after I’m simply losing time with folks. So, after I’m attempting to profit from my time with somebody, anybody—romantic or in any other case—I’m not no less than attempting to consider how a lot of my time they’re taking on, or essentially the most environment friendly option to be with them, or whether or not it’s going someplace, or whether or not it’s productive.

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Burkeman: If I’m simply type of round the home with my son and my spouse, it’s very simple to fall into “what wants doing subsequent”—you already know, this chore, that chore, getting ready for the following day. I believe if you are able to do something to type of put your self ready the place you could have, you already know, all gone on a stroll, or all gone to go to one thing, or all watching the film, or no matter it’s—if there’s a type of a framework round that—it’s slightly bit simpler to step away from that instrumentalist mindset.

After I bear in mind, I believe additionally bringing consideration to the senses, versus thought, is basically vital. You already know: simply actually taking note of sights, sounds, contact, scent, no matter, is a manner of lowering the facility that in any other case naturally—for folks like me anyway—goes to sort of compulsive thought.

Rashid: So how can I be each conscious and engaged with my time extra usually, with out having to go full Zen mental-shutdown mode?

Burkeman: Simply to be clear, I discover being on this mindset—slightly than the instrumental future-focused one—actually troublesome. And I believe, you’ll be able to actually get misplaced in thought. And I’m undecided I need to condemn that, as a result of I believe typically that may be a superbly significant factor to do, however perceive and count on that it’s going to really feel uncomfortable initially. Lots of people as of late say they don’t have time to learn anymore.

Rashid: Proper, proper.

Burkeman: And I believe what they usually actually imply is that they don’t just like the expertise of sitting down with a e book, as a result of their minds are so conditioned to transferring quick that it feels disagreeable. I’ve actually had that have.

All I can do—and I discover it terribly efficient, however it doesn’t really feel like an extremely nice perception or something—however all I do is I remind myself that that is how the primary couple of pages really feel whenever you’re wired for pace and also you’re simply sitting down and also you’re simply starting to learn a novel. And you already know, that’s advantageous, however the discomfort doesn’t kill you, and it lifts.

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Rashid: So, Oliver, most of our dialog has been in regards to the mandatory mindset shift that’s required to be extra in tune with every second. And, you already know, it makes me take into consideration my mates with youngsters, as a result of they should be super-present with their youngster within the second, be current with themselves (sufficient to be affected person with their child). And so they additionally must sustain with all of the productive duties and calls for to profit from their time in their very own lives.

I imply, how can we stability these competing priorities when there’s a type of instrumental purpose to, you already know, elevate your youngster and make them right into a compassionate human being sooner or later who can exist and thrive on the earth on their very own, and likewise be current with them within the second?

Burkeman: I discover parenting to be a rare crucible for all of this, simply because there’s a lot strain, each internally and externally, to deal with all questions of what it means to be a very good father or mother as questions on what you might want to do in an effort to create essentially the most profitable future grownup. Um, you already know, my son’s studying to play the piano a bit.

I’m attempting very arduous to not flip right into a type of tyrant type of father or mother insisting on a lot observe that it takes all the enjoyment out of the expertise. And when as an alternative he’s banging round on the piano and I’m banging round on the xylophone that we’ve got in the home.

Rashid: A band!

Burkeman: Precisely. You already know, I don’t assume that there’s any a part of me, in that second, that’s pondering, How can we make this band actually good in order that we are able to…

Rashid: …begin a world tour?

Burkeman: From touring and downloads, proper? I imply there’s something in regards to the letting go into these moments that’s completely unbelievable. However the place I might most naturally go can be like, “Okay, piano observe for this many minutes. Have you ever gone by means of these workout routines?”

With parenting and life on the whole, it at all times feels such as you’re studying simply too late. However I’m studying that there’s worth within the type of ridiculousness of creating these noises within the current, slightly than the place they is likely to be main.

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Bogost: So Becca, the opposite day I met a colleague of mine for a drink after work, and we went to this type of bizarre pub on this lodge. And there was no cell sign, no Wi-Fi community, and I used to be simply sitting there ready for him.

So I simply appeared round at, you already know, the folks coming in, and I appeared on the menu a couple of occasions, and I noticed, That is so uncommon.

I lastly couldn’t do anything, and so I didn’t really feel like I must be doing one thing else. As a result of there was nothing else I may actually do.

Rashid: Oh, fascinating. I really feel like if I used to be in your footwear, I might nonetheless really feel like I must be doing one thing else.

Bogost: I most likely did really feel that manner, in fact. However that sensation that, like, it’s worse to do nothing than to delete emails in your telephone? Proper? However you already know, it wasn’t at all times like this. I wrote a chunk earlier this 12 months about this. What did folks do earlier than smartphones? I don’t imply for work or for leisure—what did they do throughout these off occasions? Once they had been ready for the dentist, or no matter, and it was truly horrible? We had been tremendous bored, you already know.

I bear in mind being a child, and also you’d look by means of the Highlights journal 100 occasions earlier than the physician lastly referred to as you. Or like, studying something you could possibly discover: indicators on the wall, looking at clocks. You already know, prior to now, whenever you had {a magazine} or no matter, you’ll burn by means of it. It could be expended. There have been solely so many pages, and when you’d learn them or skimmed them, you had been achieved.

And your telephone, your Instagram, no matter it’s: There’s at all times one thing new. Possibly it’s not fascinating to you, however it’s new. And that appears like a distinction.

In order that discomfort related to having nothing new to see within the second, that’s sort of gone away. Now there’s at all times one thing new. And I believe that makes it simpler for us to assume, Effectively, I must be doing one thing new at each second.

Rashid: Proper. And that strain to do one thing new at each second—I’ve been at so many dinners and we simply sit down, it’s a gaggle of individuals. And if there’s even a short lull in dialog, somebody says, like, “The place are we going after this?” However we simply bought there. We’re on the place, we’re on the dinner.

Bogost: You already know Becca, I’m wondering if it’s arduous to tolerate losing time as a result of we’re at all times wanting ahead to one thing—what comes subsequent. Or we’ve got issues like smartphones now that make ready extra tolerable, as a result of we are able to do one thing new on a regular basis.

However you already know, I imply, we didn’t used to know the bus was coming in 4 minutes, since you may take a look at your telephone and see it. I imply it will come finally, maybe, and you’ll be pressured to sort of take care of the truth that the bus, you already know, it’s not simply there for you, that you just’re only one particular person on the earth, and also you may need to simply wait.

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Rashid: Persistence, endurance. We’re at all times being examined … like proper now. We’ll be again proper after a fast break.

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Burkeman: The artwork historian Jennifer Roberts factors out that endurance as of late is definitely a sort of actually vital type of management. It was that endurance was one thing that folks, slightly condescendingly, had really useful to individuals who didn’t have energy, proper?

So within the days when ladies had been more likely to be type of obliged to stay at house doing home issues, whereas males had been out working on the earth, endurance was a advantage—as a result of it’s the sort of factor that retains folks from complaining about their scenario.

However as society has sped up, endurance modifications its position. Like now, the default is that we’re all transferring extremely quick. and it turns into a type of company to have the ability to sit with an issue, sit with an expertise, and never must convey issues to the following stage or determine the place they’re headed.

Rashid: As slightly child, and even now typically, simply feeling like every part I needed to do in life wanted to be achieved at this time. Like—the idea of “extra time tomorrow” was by no means my default. And I bear in mind my dad and mom would at all times say, “Why are you speeding every part? You’re so younger; you could have a lot time.” Is it useful to show youngsters that point is proscribed or limitless? And which one results in youngsters having a greater relationship with time as they become older?

Burkeman: Yeah; there’s a manner of deciphering all this discuss time being restricted and life being brief, which is extremely stress inducing, proper? It principally says, like, “There’s no time. You’ve bought to get transferring now. You’ve bought to fill your life with 1,000,000 extraordinary actions every single day, as a result of in any other case, will you actually have lived?”

Burkeman: I believe, firstly: Children, in my expertise, have a really pure affinity for being extra current and fewer type of fixated on maximizing effectivity. However then, clearly in an age-appropriate manner, the message right here is, “Yeah, time is finite.” However that’s not a motive to begin hurrying and match absolutely the most right into a single day or a single lifetime.

It’s a motive to cherish the time that you just get, and to essentially present up for it and to get pleasure from it. I undoubtedly went by means of a major interval of early maturity the place I used to be deep within the sort of time-maximization effectivity mindset, and possibly one has to undergo that to, you already know, come out the opposite finish with some sort of perception.

Rashid: So Oliver, for households or individuals who do have severe time constraints, they don’t at all times have the luxurious to decide on when to spend time with their youngsters, or after they must be at work. Is there something that may assist make the shortcoming to decide on really feel much less painful?

Burkeman: I believe a whole lot of that is simpler for me to say than will probably be for some, and it’s a lot worse if for any individual, the choice they should make is between protecting meals on the desk and spending high quality time with their youngsters, for instance. They’re simply in a worse place than me.

They’re within the equivalent place to me solely within the sense that in each hour, they’ll do one factor with any second, realistically, and all the opposite ones they should let go. It doesn’t imply that the alternatives, the choices that you’ve open to you, are good ones. That is determined by your scenario in life and society, completely.

However it does imply that you may let go, to a major extent, of being haunted by indecision or by guilt or by the sense that you just should have been doing one thing else with it, proper? Or that you just someway should be doing greater than you are able to do. No one ought to ever really feel that they should do greater than they’ll do.

Rashid: I really feel that manner as a rule. However how do I start to step outdoors this productiveness mindset with my time?

Burkeman: You possibly can determine to undertake a sure passion or change the way you apportion your time, in order to spend extra time nurturing a specific relationship or one thing.

You’re not committing to it for the entire of the remainder of your days; you simply should take a little bit of your time now, or very quickly, to do one thing that issues to you. Even when it’s solely 10 minutes; even in case you are not assured that you just’re going to have the ability to do it every single day for the following month or something like that. However to simply do a few of it.

And I believe truly, this can be a place the place the concentrate on habit-building will be fairly counterproductive. As a result of in case you inform your self you’re going to begin meditating every single day, eternally, that’s fairly a burden. And it’s fairly tempting to type of put it off for a couple of extra weeks till your schedule clears up. In the event you inform your self you’re going to do it for 10 minutes at this time, and that’s it, then that’s the level at which issues begin altering curiously in a single’s life, I believe.

I believe all of us expertise, typically, that sense of merely being within the move of time, slightly than having this type of clock or calendar, or nevertheless you visualize it, hounding you. Or that you just’re always type of preventing.

It’s only for itself. Effectively, that’s clearly very near a reasonably deep type of religious, Buddhist-sounding, Daoist-sounding thought: about how truly solely the current is actual, and that you must type of discover worth in it in case you’re going to seek out worth anyplace. There’s an actual argument that “losing time” in the way in which we outline that as of late is one thing that’s extraordinarily vital for us to be taught to do.

Rashid: Oliver, thanks a lot once more to your time. I’ve realized a lot.

Burkeman: Oh, it’s been a pleasure.

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Bogost: So, Becca, I believe what Oliver is saying isn’t that we must always attempt to seize the literal current second; that’s not possible now. All the time vanishes. It’s gone. It’s gone. However it’s like a barely larger “now”—like slightly trunk of the second that you may be in and you’ll really feel occurring.

Rashid: I hear what Oliver is telling us being one thing extra like, “After I’m off the clock and I’m at house, I don’t must be rearranging my pantry instantly as my grandma would like to have me do.”

Bogost: I would like to do this too.

Rashid: I’m simply so conditioned to be productive and really feel like when I’ve a minute of downtime, if I’m not working towards a type of targets, that it’s being wasted.

Bogost: Mmm. So Becca, our present known as Hold Time. So “protecting time”: I used to be excited about that phrase. You know the way you employ it in music, such as you maintain time in music?

Rashid: Like with a metronome? Yeah.

Bogost: Yeah, just like the rhythmic sense of protecting time. Like tapping your foot.

Rashid: Yep.

Bogost: In the event you may really feel the beat or hear the metronome, that’s as shut as we get to type of being within the second. Yeah; you’ll be able to’t seize the current, however you’ll be able to sort of really feel it transferring from current to current to current.

Rashid: And I suppose that’s the purpose, proper? I imply, it’s one thing I’m undoubtedly dangerous at, as a result of I’m at all times excited about maximizing my 4,000 weeks, if I’ve even bought that a lot time.

And I believe for me, I simply want to begin pondering of my time as my very own—not one thing that must be maximized or confirmed to different folks as one thing that I’m utilizing correctly.

What does that even imply?

Bogost: Proper. Since you’re simply utilizing it, “correctly” or not.

Rashid: Proper.

Bogost: You already know, you won’t be productive on a regular basis. You may really feel such as you’re losing time. However the time that you just spend … it’s nonetheless yours, even in case you’re not making one thing of it. I imply, possibly we have to make that absence of productive satisfaction okay.

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Rashid: Stick with us for subsequent week’s episode, the place we discover why we strain ourselves to look busy … even after we’re not.

Bogost: That’s on our subsequent episode of Hold Time.